Infinite Improbability Drive: On Jan Lokpal Bill

Certain views wrt the Jan Lokpal Bill expressed by me as a part of a discussion on fb. Not to say that I'm a fan of the government reaction to the protests.

AM
The Govt. has put a condition to get 25 crore people to support Jan LokPal. To give your support call 02261550789 (as given by Kiran Bedi) from your mobile no. Your call will be disconnected after 1 ring and your number registered automatically. You will get an SMS confirming this. Do it and pass it onto all your friends to make India corruption free. It is now or never.
Its true and NOT a spam message circulating!!!
I got the confirmation as well!!

09 August at 19:57 · ·

- SR plz do watch video of arvind khejriwal @IIT Chennai .......................
  
  09 August at 20:18 ·
- AM link?
  
  09 August at 20:19 ·
- SR I dont have link...
  but dont worry I am uploading them..........
  
  09 August at 20:22 ·
- AM k
  
  09 August at 20:22 ·
- Smarika Please understand the full implications of the Bill before jumping onto the Hazare bandwagon to support it. With the so called support of the people (ironically calling it democracy), the Bill does nothing but create an oligarchy. Not saying you should blatantly accept this argument, but do include this line of thought in your Jan Lokpal Bill perspective too while deciding to support/oppose it. Reco reads: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/of-the-few-by-the-few/772773/0
  http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2011/04/08/against-jan-lok-pal-and-the-politics-of-hunger-strikes/
  
  Of the few, by the few - Indian Express
  www.indianexpress.com
  
  Of the few, by the few - Sometimes a sense of unbridled virtue can also subvert democracy.
  
  09 August at 20:32 · · 1 person ·
- AM the website had a forum for our opinions...i disagreed wid a few views
  
  09 August at 20:33 ·
- SR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHcKlIsvAQ&feature=related
  
  Part 1: Arvind Kejriwal @ IIT Chennai - 31st July 2011
  www.youtube.com
  
  Arvind Kejriwal speaking at IIT Chennai about Jan Lokpal Bill
  
  09 August at 22:02 ·
- SR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54zUeKJYhd4&feature=related
  
  Part 3: Arvind Kejriwal @ IIT Chennai - 31st July 2011
  www.youtube.com
  
  Arvind Kejriwal speaking at IIT Chennai about Jan Lokpal Bill
  
  09 August at 22:04 ·
- SR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6_vdFD_HUM&feature=related
  
  Part 4: Arvind Kejriwal @ IIT Chennai - 31st July 2011
  www.youtube.com
  
  Arvind Kejriwal speaking at IIT Chennai about Jan Lokpal Bill
  
  09 August at 22:04 ·
- SR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPIW_NPaRt0&feature=share
  
  Part 2: Arvind Kejriwal @ IIT Chennai - 31st July 2011
  www.youtube.com
  
  Arvind Kejriwal speaking at IIT Chennai about Jan Lokpal Bill
  
  09 August at 22:06 ·
- Smarika wow, i find these lectures to be deeply misguided, full of ill-thought rhetoric. One needs to be very careful while internalising the sweeping statements as made in these lectures- as responsible citizens and even more so as lawmakers.
  
  09 August at 22:52 ·
- SR you've been blatantly giving your views.....criticizing the highly researched, detailed and well thought of draft put forward by the Civil society members.......
  You seem to have not understood the basic ideology and motive behind the whole movement....
  I'd appreciate if you would be more specific with your views....
  
  09 August at 23:03 ·
- Smarika my basic argument is that sadly civil society seems to be losing much of what it claims to uphold: i.e. democracy and basic tenets of human rights in criminal law. For example, free legal aid to the accused, presumption of innocence, law making by democratically elected legislators. I am not opposed to the allegations wrt the escalation of corruption in India, which is well founded, but these are clearly not well founded solutions to it, because they seem to be coming at too huge a cost. If you pursue the two links I put here earlier, my points will be better clarified. Authoritarianism by public officials as we see in regard to corruption cases among other areas, cannot be overcome by even more authoritarianism, and to take such a path is not just misguided, but dangerous, as history has well told us over and over.
  
  09 August at 23:12 · · 1 person
- AP I am going to speak in favor of Smarika so others can please pardon me, for i am an employee and an IITMite( where he spoke) and i belong to a system not anarchy. With regard to the video, well spoken and I so appreciate his view( i wish i gave my speech as articulated as he did), but the words come from a practiced social activist who speaks like a politician himself ( who never appreciates his opponent). He lengthened his speech with naming scams which CANNOT be covered in a BILL preparation, showing lack of understanding of BILL METHODS, which should be generic. Second, i second smarika's point about authoritarianism. I wonder if you have seen DEPARTED where a very systemic person was actually the worst criminal..... imagine he sitting in the seat of LOKPAL... third...( controvertial it might be).... u cant just throw people around for the amount of work they are involved in. Every professional has worked with a manager ... i need my boss. and lets say the manager has done something wrong....must know how it would be if manager is arrested/dismissed from office.....consider ur office/ project shattered......let him put his defence... but activists dont really see all that.... hence although anna hazare bill might claim support from VERY SIMPLE ARGUMENTS , "desh ke lootere" sloganism/tantrums, TOI polls and SMS support n stuff... a little "isnt government a systematic enterprise?" thought should make it personal.. assuming most ppl here are working........
  
  10 August at 02:53 ·
- SR A govt. sure ought to be a "SYSTEMATIC ENTERPRISE" as suggested by Animesh Panda...but in the current Indian scenario it has lost its basic essence..and no one can deny it.....neither can one deny that there is a desperate need to take concrete steps to stop this menace from engulfing OUR country even further....just sitting back, relaxing and expecting the tooth fairy to come and set everything right would not help.....
  Ms. Smarika...you talked about the lack of tenets of human rights in criminal law in the lokpal....well if your so called "human rights" gives a human the right to walk into OUR country and bomb the very symbol of our democracy..and then live a comfortable life on the expense the same "kind hearted" democracy well....no thanks....this is just one example of the countless many....may it be Mr. Ajmal Kasab, CWG scam minus Kalmadi (c'mon he can't be the only one!!),Bhopal Gas Tragedy, Bofors scam, 2G spectrum scam, the Anti-Sikhs riots, Godhara case, many of our serving mp's, mla's and infinite other administrators........PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE along with their fellow POWER HOLDING FRIENDS .....has always given the criminals an unfair edge.
  These are mocking examples at our democratic system.... the one you advocate to continue...
  I strongly suggest that there should be a change...in the existing system....and that's what Anna and team are trying to achieve....
  Also..your "AUTHORITARIAN" clause.......a humble request...please understand for a fact that Lokpal is not a parallel govt. not even like one.....democracy would still prevail in the country....lokpal is just a regulatory body....not a governing body...
  and the power given to the Lokpals can easily be ripped off by providing evidence to the supreme court...by any ordinary citizen of OUR country....there goes your fear of the Lokpals becoming very powerful.....
  I agree with you for a fact that our sytem is more or less very good......but it is in urgent need of Cleansing and Idealization....that's what the civil society wants....
  It sure might not be perfect...but in the 64 years of our independence....India has seen...several wars...financial crunches...political instabilities...riots(communal or otherwise)...an Emergency imposed....and many other problems......but no one took an initiative.....elect and forget is not a acceptable format of democracy....for the first time we are trying to scrutinize the work of the elected......don't you think its worth a shot...???
  And about Mr. Panda......you or me are in no position to question the knowledge of the civil society members.....if you can't do much....do a google search....about the names, qualifications and work of those involved.....(the net in IITM is known to be very good)....this is no child's play ..this is some serious shit...and these guys have done their homework....and are fit for the job.....
  and with NO POLITICAL AMBITIONS...as you might persieve...
  
  10 August at 10:27 ·
- SR P.S. - This I have written after pursuing the two links you gave....very pessimist I must say.
  
  10 August at 10:29 ·
- Smarika Thank you, Animesh. I'm glad that someone in this self-righteous crowd understands the real threat of the Bill. More relieved, I should say.
  
  @Siyaram thank you for going through the articles and your observations. I appreciate that you gave some thought to it. I have the following counterarguments.
  
  1. Your blatant dismissal of the entire rights paradigm reflects upon your lack of, or deliberately ignored understanding of origin and importance of these rights. The rhetoric against rights which you use is the same which classical positivists, and later Hitler did. Democracy is an implication of human rights, and not the other way round. If we remembered that, we'd realise the meaninglessness of this phrase "mocking examples at our democratic system," which we as political opponents, public speakers, publicity fasters, and reformers have come to use so indiscriminately. Democracy and human rights are not conflicting concepts here. Not at all! Presumption of innocence is a tenet of LAW, not a political tool. I don't say that it doesn't get misused, but then we should be tackling MISUSE, not abolishing the tenet altogether. Because you know what that would make us? It would make us same as Ajmal Kasab killing people who he thought were guilty. He did not give THEM a fair trial or a chance at defending themselves, and so we won't be giving him. That's what you argue. How does doing that make us and our system any different from his justice system, and how can we claim uperiority over his kind of street justice then? It's simple. WE CAN'T!
  
  In the wake of Lokpal Bill, I've heard many people say that Corruption is a crime deserving the death penalty. So let's start picking up public officials we think are corrupt and hanging them all over the country? Let me be clear. This is exactly the scenario your argument is advocating. Reminds me of something oft- said about human rights, "Everyone thinks human rights are sham. Until they need it."
  
  2. So judicial control over the Lokpal is the most you have to offer in terms of regulations? Well, let's not forget that the judiciary has the perfect power to initiate and decide a case against a corrupt public official too. So why do you advocate for a Lokpal to control these corrupt public officials, again? =/
  
  3. "Idealisation and Cleansing"- pardon me, but I'm so reminded of the Nazis again. These are the EXACT terms which they used to justify their deeds. Okay rhetoric aside, let me attempt to answer this point of yours with a rational argument. This idealisation and cleansing should not be so "cleansing" so as to remove even the fundamentals and values in our system, which are virtuous. Yes, there are problems, but good solutions to them are solutions which are cost-beneficial. The Jan Lokpal solution is too high a cost, simply because of point #1 which I made here.
  
  Lastly, wrt these lectures you posted here, I'm sure no one is questioning the qualifications, credibility and conviction of this man. But I have been working with the civil society for the past 3 years, and these lectures are far from a shining example of civil society. Binayak Sen I'm sure, would agree. Heh. Tackling public life menace at the cost of human rights? Really?
  
  10 August at 12:38 · · 1 person

Thursday, August 18, 2011

On Jan Lokpal Bill